Hot Mess Mom » Dear Diary, Family » That is so gay
That is so gay
I am very open with my children. VERY OPEN. I talk to them about everything. Even when they were very little and I didn’t think they “needed” the answer to their question…. I figured, if they ask I will answer. That has always been my motto.
As they get older, they ask less. So I answer the unasked questions. Which basically means, I talk to them about things that they don’t want to talk about. Things that make them uncomfortable and things they think are gross. I talk, they listen.
This includes topics like sex, body changes, alcohol, drugs, death, religion, crime, abuse and any other topic you can think of.
However there is one thing that I do not try to “explain” to them.
Homosexuality. Same sex partnerships. Alternative families. These things we do not discuss. I do not explain. It requires no explanation.
When they were younger, and they would see a same-sex couple on television or in public and would ask questions, I would respond “God created everyone differently. No one is the same. Sometimes boys grow up and marry girls. Sometimes they marry other boys. People marry the person they fall in love with.” That was enough for them then. And it’s enough for them now.
My boys are 11, 9 & 7. They still occasionally ask me questions about sex, drugs and alcohol. They sometimes inquire about other people’s life-styles ie: single parents, abusive fathers, unmaintained homes and dirty children. They NEVER mention homosexuality. It is such a non-issue in our home– they don’t ask me about the air we breathe, the water we bathe in, or how the groceries get into the fridge. And they don’t ask about “gay”.
If you know me at all (or read me at all) you know that I curse like a sailor. My boys will occasionally drop a “shit!” or a “sonofabitch!”.. They do not get punished for these words. I remind them “don’t say that“.. and that is it. However, the words “hate”, “stupid”, “idiot”, “shut-up” or “retard” will get you seriously punished in our home. I don’t like mean words. I believe that it is way worse for a child to yell “You are stupid and I hate you” than to mutter “oh shit“. I understand rules are different in other homes.. but this is how it goes at Chez HMM.
Number One is about to be in middle school. “Gay” has become the adjective of choice with his peers. “Oh my gosh.. you are so gay” “That is so gay“ etc. etc. And it doesn’t bother me. And I’ve spend a lot of time trying to figure out why it doesn’t bother me…. it is a “mean” word, right?
I’ve been lost in my head over this for days and all I can come up with is that… No.. it’s not a mean word. It’s just a word. If they said to each other “Oh my gosh , you are so tall” “That is so brown” “you’re so freckly” “he is soooooo white”… it would mean nothing… it would just be their choice word of the day.
There is part of me that keeps thinking the I cannot allow them to say “that’s so gay” because it is an insult. But thinking that “gay” is an insult is against everything that I believe and everything I have taught my children. My only concern ..truly.. ONLY concern is if the term would be used in a hateful manner against a child who is perceived to be homosexual….. and if I ever witnessed that from my own children or their friends, I would address it immediately, just as I would address them calling someone fat or short or tall with the intent to insult. But as far as responding to a bad joke, a silly dance or a crazy t-shirt as “Dude~~ so gay“… I am okay with it. But I am still torn by my own stance.
I would love your thoughts on this… Especially from those of you who are gay, have gay family members or gay children. Is this a bigger deal than I think it is?
{And note.. I have NEVER not published a comment on HMM… whatever your thoughts.. I always share them. That being said.. this is not a forum for anti-gay, homophobic chatter. Any comments containing such will be deleted}
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The one thing that jumped out at me … “retard” is not okay but “gay” is. I don’t see the difference. Both are part of today’s slang, both can be used in a hateful manner. For the record, I use both of those words with family and close friends as slang ONLY, but am careful not to use them in public b/c you never know. My kid is only 9 months old, so this hasn’t come up in our family, but I agree that I’d rather my kid say “oh shit” than spew something hateful. And I agree with being as open and honest as possible too. I’d rather they hear the answer to a difficult or uncomfortable question from me or my husband than some other kid etc. Anyway, just my two cents.
i agree.. I said ‘retard’ until the past few years… my kids’ school has a excellent program for children of many different disabilities. We stopped saying “retard” when I thought it may hurt the feelings of the parents of these children. I would equate ‘faggot’ or “homo” as words to hurt… And maybe “gay”.. that’s what I’m trying to figure out…
I 100% feel the same way about words like stupid, hate, shut up. I myself will say something is so gay because I don’t feel like it is demeaning. To me, it is generally used for something that is whimsical and fun or rainbow-ish, and therefore in my opinion not offensive. However, if my children were to say faggot (sorry- I mean no offense by this) they would be in serious trouble. That word, to me, is derogatory and offensive.
Funny little story, my brother is picking up his girlfriend (now wife) up for a date when they were teenagers and her elderly grandmother says to her, ” your skirt is too short, put some stocking on or you will freeze your twat off!” today, that is considered offensive to some, but a twat in her time was your butt. Although the story doesn’t really relate to this post, who doesn’t love the image of an 85 year old woman saying twat?
faggot, homo, any of those I think are meant to be insulting…
I can definently relate to the family of openness. My parents were always honest with me and I know when my children get old enough to ask these questions, I will give them similar honest and open minded answers. I can understand your conflict with the phrase ‘so gay’ would you think they same if it was said ‘so niggerish’ or’so cracker’? I am not racist, for me my interpretation of those words has a specific action, persona tied to it and not a race or culture. I agree it is one of those words lumped in with curse words or sarcasm- for me. I tolerate it as long as the use is not excessive or creating a hostile environment but I would not encourage it to be used outside the family or friends who know your interpretation of it. It is not for classrooms, work, or public forums.
I think I’d ask my child what that means to her when she said it. If they mean it as a substitute word for “stupid” then it should be treated as such or if they are intending it as an insult. Or maybe it’s just a word they say and it really doesn’t mean anything insulting. It’s not only how you perceive it but how they do.
That is a great suggestion! Their intention in using the word is key. My daughter is only two now, but I am sure I will cross this bridge before too long.
Love that too @Marguerite- using stupid as a qualifier for a word.
To me, saying something is gay usually means that’s it’s not good. One song I used to sing to my son has queer in it but queer means strange in that song. I still don’t go around saying something’s queer, just because it’s not a word I grew up with. I do have a really hard time with retard. I know it’s bad, but it’s such an enjoyable word to say. Like Fuck. It just feels good. HA! But I have to keep myself from saying it in front of my son. And I mean no disrespect to challenged kids. I am totally fine with him saying stupid, but it all depends on what he is talking about- and hopefully not who. But things can definitely be stupid. My biggest problem is with the word “hisself” or “mines”. But I can have that as my biggest problem because the boy has not said anything too terrible yet.
yes.. i should have clarified.. my boys can “hate” brocolli or think a movie is “stupid”. they cannot direct those words at people.
Wow, your post brings up some interesting thoughts for me… I spoke with my kiddos about homosexuality because in the 3rd grade she said some of the boys were saying “That is so gay!” Before reading your post, I hated that statement. Now I’m thinking… I’ve never asked any of my gay peeps if that statement is offensive… and now I don’t know. Being gay is like being white, black, brown, tall, short, etc. to me, I am a Southern California girl, gay is very present and normal, always has been for me. I didn’t want my kiddos to think differently than I do about homosexuality, so I explained it to them in a very similar way you did. Also in the 3rd grade my #1 mentioned “it was gross” because she heard someone else say that. So my “gay” conversation also included the topic of thinking for yourself, to really think about your own opinion and to have some knowledge before you start spouting off blanket statements, etc.
After writing this, for me, “That is so gay!” can still be offensive. It all depends on what you are saying “is so gay”….
I’ve told my boys before that I’d rather hear them swear than use the words “stupid”, “retarded” and, yes, “gay” to hurt someone’s feelings or insult someone or something. While I get what you’re saying about “gay” just being a descriptive word like “tall” or “white” or whatever, no one ever says, “Dude, you’re so TALL!” as an insult. People use the word “gay” to insult and hurt, as if being gay is a bad thing, the same as they use the words “stupid” and “retarded”. Just yesterday my 7 year old told me that he knew there were 2 meanings for the word “gay”, one was good and one was bad. I explained to him that being gay isn’t bad, but using the word “gay” to hurt someone’s feelings was. I did frame it in the context you’re suggesting here…that he would never consider insulting someone by telling them they are so “blonde” or so “tall” or whatever. I explained that it is never ok to hurt someone by making it seem that something they were born being is a bad thing. (To which he promptly broke into Lady Gaga’s Born This Way and I freakin’ ADORE that he did that!) I guess it depends on the context in which it’s being used, but I personally find “That’s/You’re so gay” to be offensive.
i love the perspective… thank you.. you all seem to think the same thing… (and i dig that kid of yours
Absolutely not ok for my kids to say anything is gay unless they are talking about a very happy French person. However, I say it all the time because I’m a total asshole.
Are they saying it as a compiment? I don’t think so. It is derogatory the way they mean it. We do know gay people so I don’t want my kids to repeat this saying but they hear it all the time. It doesn’t even make sense as a put down.
I asked my friend to read this post. I am quoting him directly. For the record, he’s a 30 year old gay dude who I love dearly and have the utmost respect for.I understand her stance completely, but the litmus test I use to determine if something is derogatory or shouldn’t be said, is: Can you substitute ‘black’ for ‘gay’, and it still be okay to say in public? Black in itself is merely a descriptive (not derogatory) term. And like ‘gay’, its use determines whether it is derogatory. Could you imagine allowing kids to say, “Tyrone failed the test, how black is that!!?? Sooo black.” I think she even admitted that these kids are using it as an insult. So her do-nothing stance doesn’t seem to do these slights justice.”
“I would also go further and say that making sexual preference a non-issue is absolutely commendable, but we probably ALSO have to teach our kids that there are people in the world who can’t come to terms with it, and sometimes use it in a derogatory way, and it is not okay for them to do so.”
I then asked if he wanted me to state his sexuality. Here is his final response:
“Honey, I’m queer as a damn picnic basket. Put that.”
Bart Kliebert
“
And non of my punctuation came through!! His quote started with “I understand her stance completley…”
i’m in love with Bart Kliebert and will commence stalking him on Facebook immediately.
I 100% agree with liese that it’s all about intent and context. My brother is gay and he and my favorite sister in law (Jeff) have been together 17 years. I have major issues with “that’s so gay”. I think my sons 8 yr old friends mean it in a negative way. I don’t want my son to be ok with it. I think it is nothing to be considered negative just another of the many ways we are all different. It makes them no more of less of a person. Recently my sons friend said that and I asked him if he knew what “gay” meant. He said it means boys liking to kiss boys instead of girl. I then asked him if he liked mustard on his sandwiches. He said no he liked ketchup. I asked him if that meant he was bad because he didn’t like mustard but preferred ketchup. He stopped a minute and I said that is what your saying about being gay. He got it and hasn’t said it since. I think teaching tolerance is a very important part of parenting in this day and age. Sadly man parents aren’t forward thinking and don’t consider this a problem or priority. It’s good to see so many Mom’s out there that do care.
If he lets you in, you will be a lucky lady.
So this is my second attempt…when I hit “post” after a really great response, there was something wrong w/ your server, and it was lost.
My two cents: It is a HORRIBLE phrase. As a gay woman, I own the word. I refer to myself as gay, lesbian…hell, I’ve even called myself a dyke (which is funny, b/c I totally do not fit that stereotype). However, I do not refer to anything as “that’s so gay…”. These are sentences that are truly based in degradation. Even when the child does not know it. Gay is not something that our society or culture perceives as positive. Homosexuality is vilified and demonized. Because we live in a culture where gay people are still routinely victimized and discriminated against; because we live in a country where 33 states have codified discrimination and hate into their state constitutions regarding gay marriage; because in NC a “pastor” just suggested all of us terrible homos and lesbians should be placed in an electrified pen, separated by gender, so we can die out. For these reasons, when using the phrase “it’s gay…”, it is pejorative, because, unlike for you, gay is not seen in a positive light in our dominant culture.
I think it is FANTASTIC that you have taught your boys that it is a nonissue – I wish more parents were successful in this realm. I’ve already had to get into it w/ one of my 11yr olds friend’s moms about her daughter telling my daughter that “I like your mom…but I think homosexuality is wrong [b/c the Bible says so]” The whole hate the sin, love the sinner bullshit that is used to “help” gay people leave the bondage of homosexuality.
For all these reasons, that phrase or any derivation thereof, do not fly in our home.
Thanks for asking D…I truly think this is one of those things that is different for people who don’t truly experience it. For me, it is akin to uttering “nigger” & as a southerner, I know you get that.
love & smooches!
i love this and i love you! and truly.. THIS is exactly why i asked.. and again..i have been TRULY torn on this issue..
I’m not gay. My kids are not gay (yet). They don’t have gay aunts and uncles. They have Gooley, but he’s barely gay. I truly have been torn… is making it a bad word giving it power that I don’t think it should have?
What you (and almost everyone unamimously has said is that… it doesn’t matter if I think the word SHOULD have power.. it DOES.
Thank you.
thank you all.. New rule at Chez HMM begins today.
I think using the term “that’s so gay” is offensive. It’s meant to insult and hurt a person.Just like the N-Word, we as a society, have desensitized each other to it’s core purpose – to demean.
I don’t think that your boys want to hurt anyone’s feelings, they just think it’s the slang of the day. But that’s the problem. Changing the context of the word still does not change the origin of the word. That’s why I don’t say these words at home or in public.
This is a great topic btw….love your blog.
What was wrong with the term homosexual instead of gay? Gay as a word has never intended to be used to describe sexual preferrence. And I want my rainbow back… Why do they need the entire rainbow? No one can wear a shirt with a rainbow on it and not be considered “gay” and thats wrong…
“i want my rainbow back”! you are a mess.
My kids have an aunt married to a woman so there’s no discussion really needed. They grew up knowing there are different types of families. I would never be okay with them using the word gay in a pejorative way. When gay is used in a slang away like that’s so gay, it’s either a substitute for lame or feminine And never meant as anything but an insult. the implication is that gay is something undesirable to be. I’m also not okay with retard being used as anything but a verb as in “retard a chemical process”
I do not like my kids saying “that’s so gay” to describe something they don’t like – and I don’t use the phrase myself. I feel it is offensive, but have also never asked anyone if they feel it is. Maybe I am also making it a bigger deal than it needs to be? Hmmm…
Wow. That’s hard. I use it and have never meant anything offensive by it. When I think of the gay people I know, they are a riot. They’re fun, funny, dressed to the nines, like to shop, have an eye for decor, etc. I say it as I would say “you’re so southern” or “that is so No-Cal” (Northern California – which I might start changing to “Gooley”
). I can see where it might be offensive to some, though. I suppose it depends on the person and the situation and the context.
Dearest HMM- You should know that 99% of what you say is freaking hilarious. There is a house a few doors down that is for sale and you should buy it. My neighborhood is chock full of awesome messes and we need a leader. That being said, no ma’am to gay being used as an adjective. Your kiddos are not substituting gay for awesome or cool or smart. They’re using it as a synonym for stupid, ugly, etc. Your kids sound too damn cool to let them keep doing it. To be fair, I also curse like a pirate on spring break. I need to work on that shit one of these days. Nah… fuck it. My kids are too young to notice yet.
Have a great weekend.
ha! and note: it’s not MY kids saying it.. it’s their peers.. so I know it’s about to become an issue…
And i thought my kids didn’t notice my cursing until my 3 year old said “Look at that fucking dog”.. {still didn’t stop me ;}
I used to say “That’s so gay” all the time until one time I said it about a salt shaker that wouldn’t shake salt because it only had one tiny hole (so obviously I was using the term ‘gay’ as a euphemism for ‘stupd’)… and I blurted it out right in front of my gay friend. And he said loudly and sarcastically “Oh yes, that soooo totally IS gay!” And I think the flames from my face burned down the restaurant. I never said it again.
Great post, great conversation.
I have and continued to talk to my son about everything, homosexuality being one of the many topics! We have many family friends that are gay, so homosexuality has never been spoken about in a negative way! A few times in his life he has been called gay and thankfully he handled the situations very well. He is often dressed stylishly and his shoes ALWAYS match his outfit and he is almost always laughing joking, smiling and in a good mood! His response “if people call me gay because of how I dress and act then they are using the word correctly!” (He is very knowledgeable of words, origins, and definitions) He is right! According to Webster’s Dictionary . . . the first 2 definitions are 1. happily exited, keenly alive and exuberant; 2. bright, lively, brilliant in color. It is not until the 4th definition that homosexuality is even mentioned!
As a child who grew up in the 80′s where the words gay and retarded were used as adjectives, just not in a derogatory manner, and often were used in movies and tv shows, it makes me crazy how society and the media have made these words “bad”!
I too cuss like a sailor and would rather my son cuss than say derogatory, hurtful words! Occasionally my “80′s” language has slipped out around my son and I have quickly deterred this language! And I wasn’t using it in a negative or derogatory way. My son wears his heart on his sleeve and gets offended when other people are mean! Whether they are mean to him or anyone else! We do not use hurtful words in our house, the less they are heard, the less likely they’ll be in the verbal recall! His mom on the other hand, may be a lost cause with her verbal choices!
I’ve had this same conflict over the last few years. I have friends who are gay and have raised my girls that you love who you love; no judgement. And yet, sometimes I still find myself saying “that’s so gay”, because that’s what we said as kids and I guess it carried over. But over the last say 10 years, it feels wrong when it comes out. And, somehow, I don’t say it in front of my daughters. So doesn’t that say something? I think our guts tell us the truth.
Intent is everything. And I could argue both sides. The word was hijacked and morphed and usually is used to paint one negatively.
That being said. I use it; usually to cut down a STRAIGHT friend or jokingly, cuz come on, some shit is just gay! I’m also never been a victim or bullied and would likely laugh at anyone seriously trying to cut me down through this verbal dart.
Words do hurt. A young man today Ill equipped or yet not strong enough to deflect can be damaged. Since we are talking about nuance and wordplay…Kids can’t discern subtlety.
I’m so excited that this is the topic of the day!!! I think I have a couple of different perspectives to expound upon. The first is that my mother had 2 gay brothers. And we’re talking Irish Catholic family of 13 kids!!! They were completely accepted by my mom’s family. They just were who they were. And also, this was “back in the day” when being gay was truly kept in the closet. I loved those 2 men!! But on the flip side of that was my father(staunch Catholic who was once a Catholic brother)…he just could not accept that in any way shape or form. I remember him making derogatory remarks and I also remember thinking he was the one that had it all wrong. It really pissed me off!!! They were awesome and amazing human beings and how could you not accept who they were for just being wonderful people, gay or not. We all knew they were gay, but that’s not what identified them. What identified them was the loving, giving, wickedly hilarious, unselfish people that they were. This world is a better place for having had them in it.
Flash forward…my other perspective is that of being a mother of a 19 year old and a 17 year old(both amazing girls). The saying “that’s so gay” just has never been part of the Wrba vocabulary. You said it is a non-issue for you. The being gay or lesbian is also a non-issue for us. The issue for us is that of inequality and it is discussed PASSIONATELY in our house!! My 17 year old has ZERO tolerance for the inequality in this country!! As do I!!! She is a member of the Gay Straight Alliance club at her high school. She’s straight and I think that makes it even more awesome that she’s a member. She’s not afraid to speak her mind about the topic. I can’t tell you how proud of her I am!!! She doesn’t give 2 shakes of a rat’s ass if you’re gay, but stand back if she sees someone being discriminated for it!! I just love that kid!!! She has many gay/lesbian friends. But that is not what identifies them. They’re not her “gay” friends, they’re her friends. Period. And for the record…I hate the word TOLERANCE!!!!!! It should be ACCEPTANCE!!!!!!
Amen Wrba!!
Gooley, I wanna make out with you.
I think the problem with the kids’ use of gay is that it’s taking something that is core to people’s identity and making it into a jokey insult. That can’t feel good. Interesting discussion though!
When I have heard children say Gay in a sentence They HAVE NOT been using it to express what is whimsical and fun or rainbow-ish, It is usually used to express something they don’t like” That is so gay” Usually does NOT mean “THAT IS SO AWESOME” So.. I think it is offensive I didn’t allow my children to express them self’s that way That is just my opinion of course. I did and still do talk about EVERYTHING with my children It’s great you do that!!!! They will come to you even when there older and share and talk to you about things they may be unsure about IT IS amazing!!!
My kids are 10 and 7, and I have had to have the gay talk with them because my daughter asked. Since then, we’ve just added ‘gay’ to the same list of words you have above- ‘stupid, retard, idiot’ etc, just in case. My son said something was ‘so gay’ one time, and I asked him to explain to me why he said that and what made it ‘so gay’. He couldn’t explain it, so I just told him not to use it anymore. That’s how we roll in my house- if you can explain it, logically justify it, or respectfully, intelligently debate it, then you can probably say it or do it, lol.
I’ve told my middle-school-age sons they shouldn’t be saying “gay” (or “retarded”) as in “that’s so…” or “he’s so…” for a simple reason — it perpetuates the IDEA that there’s something wrong with homosexuality. I’d hoped this generation would see being gay as a complete non-issue, yet there are too many stories of kids being bullied for being or even “seeming” gay. So in our family, we don’t do anything to confirm others’ outdated ideas on the subject or make them think that we share them.
I am totally not a homophobe, intact more like a fag hag. I used to say things were “gay”, not even associating the term with actual gayness. That is until my lesbian cousin’s partner called me out on it. It offended her on many levels. I have stopped and will teach my children, now 5,3 and 8 months that it is not ok. Unless of coarse you are speaking about someone’s sexual orientation.
I admire that you have taken strides to instill in your children the fact that gays and lesbians are normal and not any different from other people. I wish more parents would think like you do because the world would be a better place if every parent made it his/her duty to encourage tolerance, acceptance, and kindess in their children.
Now, on to the issue of “that’s so gay.” I’m so gay I spent two extra weeks in the womb trying to figure out an alternate escape route because I was NOT going to use the exit that they intended me to use. Nope, I demanded a C-section. So, as a totally gay person I am cool with the phrase “that’s so gay” as long as the person using it has an understanding of what they are saying. Language is a nebulous and ever-changing animal. The word gay used to mean happy and light-hearted; this is no longer the case. That definition is archaic. I think now we have even forged a new word “ghey” which I am not toally sure what it means. However, I think as long as a child or adult has no intention of hurting anyone using gay as an adjective is not a bad thing. I use it constantly. “Omg girl, that shirt is a little too gay for me.” As someone mentioned earlier, there are worse words like “fag” which are completely derogatory. But I can see how this is a tough call. If a kid says “that’s gay” and he really means “that’s stupid” does that mean he equates gayness with stupidity? I never really gave this topic this much thought until your blog post. Like I said earlier, intention is everything but I think when we hear a kid say that something is gay we should ask what he/she means. Is what you’re calling gay something dumb? Is it funny and brightly colored? Is it covered in bedazzles and sparkles? What? Having a kid understand what he or she is saying goes a long way to getting them to be precise with description. I am sure that a kid raised in a compassionate household in which homosexuality is considered normal will understand if he or she is told that saying something is gay may hurt someone’s feelings. There are a multitude of adjectives. Show them a better one. Unless of course they are in fact describing a pink and shiny unicorn with a tiara sipping peppermint tea at a teddy bear’s picnic as being gay. Doesn’t get any gayer than that.
I’m in love with you
I have been saying “that’s to gay” for years. I never really thought about it til now,thanks for making me think @ 9PM! Usually when I use the word it’s for something silly, stupid, or goofy. Which I relate to the original meaning of the word, to be happy. I always assumed that “gay” got its new meaning b/c gay people are thought to be flamboyant,colorful, and silly. I do not use it in pubic b/c I am sensitive to other peoples views. But when I use it I do not see it as a mean word, it’s just a word for a small audience. I was raised in a house with out cursing, shut up, or retard. My 20 month old has used the word shit correctly and even yelled “Ass Wilbie!” at our pain in the ass pug Wilbur. So I guess it’s time to start watching my mouth until we can have the grow up word convo!
So timely!
My medium son and little just got in an arguement about the xbox and it went like this..
“your such a homosexual”
and little retorted. “suck it you vagina” (obviously the P word has been outlawed here)
OMG….
seriously?
WTF did I do?
Being called “gay” I have told them is inappropriate. Gay people take offense..
“BUT WHY? They ARE gay”
(shit!they choose this ONE instance to get a clue?)
I don’t know…they just do.
“I don’t get it”
yeah…well neither do I.
Being gay or called gay shouldn’t be an insult. That’s all I get.
Now the one being called a vagina should have been more offended.